[18:58] :] [18:58] quadrispro [n=quadrisp@ubuntu/member/quadrispro] has quit ["Leaving."] [19:25] cody-somerville: how much time do you intend to stay with broken gnome-{screensaver,power-manager} in karmic? ^^' [19:26] hopefully not much longer, we need to decide on an action plan [19:26] ("broken" is maybe excessive, but that's the idea ;) [19:26] however, g-p-m seems to work just fine for me [19:27] cody-somerville: the 'inhibit' interface should be missing [19:27] (without gnome-session) [19:27] as in suspend? [19:27] like, or do you mean a dbus interface and what does said interface do? [19:28] yeah, probably as in "I'm going to suspend even if you told me not to do so" [19:28] ah [19:28] That seems less critical then the screensaver not starting automatically [19:29] I'd be open to switching to the xfce power manager if it provides an equal or better user experience [19:29] and ? that's not the case ? [19:30] (i.e. have you tried it?) [19:30] nope [19:30] UX is quite similar if you fix a few typos and make sexier notifications, cody-somerville [19:30] UX? [19:30] i prefer gnome's preference dialogs over xfce's but we should survive [19:30] user experience [19:30] Ah [19:30] that's not a big deal. It doesn't implement XF86Power and uses just a little bit more RAM, though [19:31] erp [19:31] So if I press my power button nothing will happen? [19:31] and why would xfce4-power-manager use more ram? :S [19:32] ('xf86power' isn't really related to acpi power buttons afaik) [19:32] also, does xfce4-power-manager have policy kit integration? [19:33] on what purpose? [19:34] (or maybe you mean devicekit…) [19:35] no, policykit [19:35] I think you need elevated permissions to hibernate, suspend, or shutdown when multiple users are logged in [19:36] see Applications > System > Authorizations [19:36] and see the entire power-management section there [19:36] no such menu :p [19:36] all computers are single-user ones here =] [19:37] mr_pouit, are you running Debian again? :P [19:37] of course :> [19:38] mr_pouit, :P [19:38] mr_pouit, Come over to karmic! :P [19:40] mr_pouit: dont you think that wapush is a bit extremist on the xubuntu-fr forums ? :| [19:41] SiDi: nope, because there's a long history behind that could "explain" his behavior [19:42] Well quoting the metacity package as a package to remove while its obvious that it is an issue that the devs (cody n you :p) are willing to fix is a bit hypocrite to me [19:44] SiDi: no, it's an issue of using gnome apps only for the sake of using gnome apps, nothing more :> [19:45] yeh, well, he's a troll for me :) He could at least check the roadmap before complaining so loudly. He'd for instance notice that claws and ristretto _are_ proposed for replacement of their equivalents in karmic [19:45] and he'd notice that slim cant be used that easily due to the current issues it has [19:46] SiDi: open your eyes… our leader doesn't even test them by himself (re-read the whole discussion we're having about xf-p-m or we had about xfburn) [19:48] mr_pouit: i dont expect people to sit and complain without acting. I can perfectly understand that he is unsatisfied with the current situation, but i believe it's his role to make the effort of explaining why things could change. Many desktop apps just _work_. When you decide to switch to another one, there should be [19:48] a valuable _plusvalue_ [19:48] SiDi, ++ [19:48] i'm all for saying good bye to gnome-* and gconf, but i think we should not go too fast [19:48] and i do intend to help, in future releases, xfce desktop apps, mr_pouit [19:49] mr_pouit, I'm afraid I don't have time to personally test all the different wonderful open source applications out there :( [19:49] (and notify-osd will be gconf-less for us, i promise this ;) ) [19:49] cody-somerville: xfce4-power-manager and xfburn… don't tell me you don't had the time to test them… [19:49] (I'm speaking of them for more than a year) [19:50] * SiDi has tested xf-p-m, and burns with xfburn now, but testing a burning app is quite hard when you dont burn more than twice per year :/ [19:51] mr_pouit, I have played with xfce4-power-manager at UDS and it didn't seem on par with g-p-m in terms of usability and the general consensus between xfce developers is that xf-p-m still needs a lot of work. [19:52] mr_pouit, as for xfburn, no I haven't tried it but from screenshots it looks quite a bit better [19:52] mr_pouit, However, we haven't really discussed the burner app for this cycle at all. [19:53] However, I am running, for example, trunk xfce4-session to help debug some session issues [19:53] I do freely admit that I don't have as much time for Xubuntu as I wish I did [19:55] And at the end of this cycle I'm going to ask for the Xubuntu community to vote in some capacity to reconfirm my role in Xubuntu as I can imagine there might be other folks who are not only willing but also have the time and the confidence of the community to fill my current role. [19:55] SiDi: you'll help xfce, that's great, but look at the overall xubuntu contributor, who never uses/reports a bug for xfce4-power-manager because we don't advertise it, and keep complaining every cycle that it's not ready [19:56] the problem is here [19:56] mr_pouit, the solution is here too [19:57] mr_pouit: i can barely go into the insides of xf-p-m as i don't know anything about how this damn thing works :) but i did post some bugs in bugzilla.xfce [19:57] SiDi: that wasn't for you… [20:00] mr_pouit, I'd welcome it if you took more of a leadership role as the technical lead for Xubuntu. If you think there are challenges within the Xubuntu community, both social and technical, theres nothing stopping you from instigating positive change. If you feel we should be testing out xf-p-m, then by all means seed it for folks who use the alphas/run karmic to test and report on. [20:02] since you said once "xubuntu isn't a democracy, I'm the leader, I decide", no [20:03] why should I ask people to waste time testing something you're not even looking at? [20:04] mr_pouit, Xubuntu isn't a democracy, its a meritocracy. We should strive to find consensus between the folks doing the work, not have everyone and their dog vote on every issue. [20:05] that's why you are deciding on your own, you're doing all the work… [20:08] mr_pouit, As for testing things, I'm very very very open to playing with the seeds before feature freeze [20:08] (side question : did ristretto replace gpicview in the seeds yet ?) [20:08] SiDi, Not yet. Has the new version of ristretto been uploaded yet? [20:09] !info ristretto karmic [20:09] ristretto (source: ristretto): lightweight picture-viewer for the Xfce desktop environment. In component universe, is extra. Version 0.0.22-1 (karmic), package size 109 kB, installed size 748 kB [20:09] looks like yes [20:10] cody-somerville: how many times did I ask you to send a mail to xubuntu-devel@ before switching to notify-osd (etc.)? Where is that mail? So no, really, these are just words… [20:10] afaik sarts paused development to work on feature definition, so 0.0.22 should be the latest one for this cycle [20:10] mr_pouit, I'm pretty sure we discussed it at a meeting [20:11] mr_pouit, and SiDi is working on a specification this cycle involving notifications [20:11] and do you think he can detect all bugs alone? [20:11] mr_pouit, No, thats why we seeded notify-osd [20:12] without asking for testing… [20:12] there have been no bug report for thunar about notify-osd, but there is a very annoying issue [20:12] so file a bug [20:13] SiDi, I apologize for not being more of a mentor and suggesting you send an official request for testing. [20:13] just because YOU notice the bug does not necissarily mean others have noticed [20:14] vidd: the bug is already filed… [20:15] then i dont understand the issue.... [20:16] when ppl test, thunar is not always the first thing one looks at [20:16] * vidd can go for days without opening a file manager [20:17] this is exactly my point: that's why two or three people can't find all bugs… [20:18] mr_pouit, I'm not disputing that there is room for improvement personally but I'm not sure I'm clearly understanding your concern. I *am* running karmic so I'm testing (and I have reported bugs). [20:19] mr_pouit, But I don't think thats what you're getting at since you're not even running Ubuntu [20:19] mr_pouit, Are you talking about specific packages that maybe aren't in Ubuntu yet and testing for that? [20:20] mr_pouit: what is that issue btw ? :/ [20:24] mr_pouit, I think its safe to say we've all made mistakes and could have done things better - a reality that I embrace and celebrate as an opportunity for both myself and Xubuntu as a whole to grow. [20:25] my point is that we don't report bugs on xfce apps… [20:26] anything else is just a CoC-compliant babble with nothing behing [20:26] mr_pouit, From my understanding, charlie-tca regularly forwards bugs upstream. [20:27] mr_pouit, I'm sure we can do a better job at forwarding bugs upstream though [20:27] cody-somerville: i think he doesnt mean forward upstream, but contribute upstream directly. [20:28] SiDi, Well, we need bugs to be reported in launchpad first so that we can make sure the issue isn't specific to Xubuntu. Once thats determined, we can go directly to upstream and report that issue and then use launchpad to track it. [20:28] yeah, chearlie-tca is probably the only bug triager for xubuntu [20:29] and there are still a lot not forwarded [20:29] mr_pouit, There is a clear lack of man power in a lot of areas [20:29] look at ristretto and xf-p-m: there are 0 bug reported, and that's not because they are perfect… [20:30] (this is because people don't know they exist) [20:30] * SiDi reported bugs about both of them :p [20:30] SiDi: shhht, you're a special case :p [20:30] I've reported issues about ristretto myself directly to Stephan when at UDS with him [20:30] i would also like to raise a trollish issue [20:30] how the hell will people know what ristretto/thunar/parole do while the name of the apps doesnt state it ;P [20:31] lol [20:33] and imho, this isn't a lack of manpower, rather a lack of motivation… but triaging isn't very rewarding, that's why there are some (maybe-use{ful,less}) ideas such as -a-day, to "try" to motivate people by "competition" [20:36] Xubuntu has a little amount of users and contributors. Thats a fact imo. And that'll change only over time if we make xubuntu more appealing to users that are likely to contribute [20:37] * cody-somerville nods. [20:40] I think Xubuntu core devs (you guys) need to hold a meeting in order to determine what kind of users they want, what qualities Xubu should focus on and what needs to be done for these qualities to be strenghtened. This may sound rude from me to say [20:41] but i think you need to define what you want to do of Xubuntu, and the decision fully belongs to you, since you're the persons who make it exist [20:41] I think this has been done [20:41] There is a rather lengthy strategy document thats been ratified by the community council [20:41] as well as by our community [21:22] Its not accurate enough in my opinion. I agree that we should have an OS with the best desktop apps (ie most easy to get started with / to use, with a decent set of features and that dont need dozens of heavy libs to run), but i think we need to try to achieve our goals in a more active maneer [21:23] ie. take the apps that have a decent codebase, and add the features we want, fix the bugs we dont want, etc. If we just relay on XFCE and Ubuntu GNOME to provide apps then Xubuntu will not evolve, it'll just be running after the train [21:26] i believe we would have better results if we were commiting ourselves to take apps that meet certain criterias and make them better. But of course, i'm not good at anything but coding, so i can barely evaluate the amount of work required for the other bits of Xubuntu [21:29] It isn't within our scope usually to improve specific applications [21:29] but instead improve the integration between them [21:30] I dont believe it can be done to take apps that behave differently and use different core components (that may be exclusive) and to try to "fix" them [21:31] If there really is a plusvalue to use an app that can't be better integrated than others then i think its ok, but its true we dont relay enough on XFCE to be able to really contribute it [21:31] and i also believe its easier to add stuff to apps than to remove stuff from apps :P [21:33] I've been here since 3 months so im not in the position to speak as a xubuntu contributor, but on an external point of view, Xubuntu seems to spend more time trying to workaround the fact that ubuntu-core doesnt care about us than working on its core [21:34] I think that its quite logical that the system's architecture is Ubuntu's. And we should normally have nothing to maintain there since there is the fondations team for it, correct ? [21:35] I apologize, I'm in a meeting right now. I'll reply in a moment. [21:36] SiDi, AMEN!!!!! [21:37] vidd: i am 2000 % against not download the Recommands packages !;) [21:38] "you got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything...." [21:39] vidd: semantics exist for a reason : make it possible to have several human beings living on the same reality plan. [21:42] the only issue (from my chair) i see with including the recommends it that the people that determine this should recommend that are working on a gmone build.... [21:42] then it means this is a gnome app [21:42] We dont ship KDE apps, we shouldnt ship gnome / java / mono / [21:42] kde uses NO gnome apps, so they are free to set all their kde stuff to not recommend stuff that will bring in gnome stuff [21:43] Actually, we should ship one of these when it is clear that no other app can provide equal features and when we judge these features essential [21:44] and we should craft a "gnome-app-xfce" package so we dont get hammered with "hidden" recommends that will end up dragging in all of gnome with it [21:44] Do you refer to GDM ? :p [21:45] We should just use gnome apps only as an opt-in. And if it recommands stuff then either we accept it or we rework the code [21:45] that's what im doing for notifyosd btw ;p [21:46] no...im thinking about how seemingly innocuous apps have a recommend, that has a recommend, that has a recommend, that has a recommend, that recommends metacity (and all of gnome follows) [21:47] vidd, thats why we use germinate and seeds [21:47] and why we use virtual packages [21:47] cody-somerville: are you back? :) [21:47] Yup [21:48] virtual packages are great....until you dist-upgrade' [21:48] * SiDi muzzles vidd [21:48] vidd, btw, I did test Slim with the latest version [21:49] how did it fair? [21:49] cody-somerville: i'd like to give my point of view as someone who sees xubuntu's situation from a more external point of view (nonely more objective though:p) [21:49] to me it seems clear that we have two hard depends, those that define the very xubuntu distro : Ubuntu's core and XFCE [21:49] We just need to make sure they compile and they have a sufficiently low amount of bugs, imo :) [21:50] The rest is our playground : the desktop. and the desktop should be built around these hard depends [21:50] i perfectly agree to say we should use the best apps when possible, but for all the non-desktop stuff, its running us into heavy trouble to trust gnome folks so much [21:51] here here [21:51] so i think we should define a roadmap to try to elaborate a desktop based only on xfce and freedesktop.org, within the next 2 years (because going faster would be the best way to not do things correctly) [21:52] i clearly dont believe all xfce apps can be blindly used. Parole will probably never reach the quality of a media player with several dedicated devs [21:52] but we should avoid anything that makes the desktop apps out of our direct control if we want xubuntu to be reliable for our users [21:52] and if a feature cant be provided, well, lets damn implement it [21:52] and if upstream looks us down, then lets talk to another upstream ! [21:53] SiDi, what do you think gxine as a media player? [21:53] vidd: i think i never heard of it :) [21:53] as a whole cloth replacement for totem, and the rest? [21:53] shame we can't just use vlc [21:54] * SiDi is approximately 500 % opposed to an app that plays music AND videos [21:54] The GUI is different, the needs are different, the features are different. [21:54] Putting two apps in one GUI rarely gives sexy results [21:54] SiDi, then you are opposed to ALL movie players [21:54] SiDi: and music ones usually sit in background anyways [21:54] vidd: to using movie players for music [21:55] because if the app can play a video, it can play music [21:55] it's like web-browsing in emacs... [21:55] TheSheep: yeh. And they have tools and features that make it easier to manage music :) not to make it easier to play this weird video stream over this tv cable [21:55] ** Netsplit calkins.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: @ChanServ [21:55] vidd: it can PLAY music, but its not designed for [21:55] i want apps that have a good design on a user point of view [21:56] and if these apps dont exist, then apps with a solid and flexible core, and a codebase clear enough for us to make the GUI ! [21:56] TheSheep: mmh, I think people actually browse the web using emacs ^^ [21:56] cody-somerville: you and the other maintainers of Xubuntu spend too much time fixing gnome's lack of care for us. It's true we need to evolve on this sight [21:56] (even mail client and irc :p) [21:57] but i agree with you that we should go to a decent rhythm when we make changes to xubu [21:57] SiDi, This is the first release we've really had an issue [21:58] cody-somerville: xubuntu is meant to be lighter, but its not that noticeable. We really look like ubuntu + xfwm to most of the linux community [21:58] mmm [21:58] I think we should be seen instead as an XFCE distro that focuses on great usability and desktop coherence, but this coherence, i believe we'll have to set it ourselves [21:58] The performance is seen with lower memory system but computationally wise xfce isn't particular faster than gnome [21:59] -tomaw(i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw)- [Global Notice] Hi all, one of our sponsors is having connectivity problems resulting in a loss of services (ChanServ, NickServ etc). Please keep with us while we investigate. Thanks. [21:59] if we were to contribute to Interface Guidelines in XFCE itself and to help app developers work on pure design / usability problems that they dont have time to take care of, i think we would have a better reputation, more users, and most important, a better release [21:59] and it doesn't seem like the Xfce devs, the ones that are active today atleast, even want to focus on performance anymore by their own admission [22:00] SiDi, What makes an Xfce application an Xfce application? [22:00] cody-somerville: i dont believe you can use a P II forever anyway. XFCE is lighter and there probably is a bigger care for not implementing fancy and heavy features [22:00] SiDi, Xfce doesn't have a huge set of desktop environment specific libs so any gtk application can be an Xfce app really [22:00] It uses XFCE core libs (and libxfce4ui isnt really sexy :p) [22:00] and there is an enormous mosquito next to me, brb. [22:01] most of the xfce libs are composed of helper functions [22:01] they don't provide any huge set of functionality unique to Xfce [22:01] davmor2 [n=davmor2@94-171-216-200.cable.ubr15.wolv.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] [22:02] To create an Xfce app, you just have to be a friend of a Xfce developer. Your application doesn't even need to work - theres no quality assurance requirements, UI guidelines, or anything like that [22:03] This needs to change. But it'll change only someone makes it possible [22:03] Its a change that needs to occur in the Xfce community [22:03] and they *like* how things are now [22:03] But we should not sit and expect it. [22:04] We shouldnt adopt a downstream point of view when speaking to them. If you tell them that you'd like proper UI guidelines and that you're ready to design them and to make sure it fits their needs, then i see no reason for them to refuse [22:05] SiDi, I don't dispute Xfce needs more contributors [22:13] ** Netsplit over, joins: @ChanServ [22:13] Does the xubuntu council exist at this time cody-somerville ? [22:14] What is the decision process in Xubuntu ? [22:14] No Xubuntu Council yet - no need thus far. [22:14] Generally, the folks doing the work make the decisions [22:15] It can be escalated to one of the leads. The next level of escalation is to myself followed by the Ubuntu TB and/or Community Council [22:18] There isnt any formal infrastructure for important decisions, at the moment, right ? [22:18] Things are just discussed here, and then applied by one of the core devs, or given up ? [22:18] benny`work [n=benny@eclipse/developer/Technology/bennywork] has joined #xubuntu-devel [22:19] SiDi, Section 3.1 of the strategy document describes the Xubuntu governance structure and 3.2 describes dispute resolution [22:20] 4.5 elaborates on dispute resolution for development issues [22:22] It seems to me - correct me if i'm wrong - that the two core developers that i see everyday (my apoligizes to anyone who i dont cross on the channel due to different time zones) : you and mr_pouit - disagree on what strategy Xubuntu should adopt [22:23] More worrying to me, while i perfectly understand that one always wants to release one's work and sweat to the largest audience, it looks like we are not able to _focus_ on a kind of users and to make sure to focus on their expectations [22:24] I think theres a pretty decent definition of our target in the strategy document [22:25] May you explain me how exactly do you think it is most efficient to address Focus 1 ? [22:28] Sure [22:29] There is a strong foundation provided by Ubuntu. For example, a part of said foundation is policykit [22:30] We should ensure the applications we use take advantage of policykit instead of simply failing, erroring out, or using gksudo [22:30] For example, we should patch xfce4-session to use the policykit helper functions to prompt the user for their password to shutdown the computer when multiple users are logged in [22:31] policy-kit is an ubuntu-only thing, right ? [22:31] not at all [22:31] Its from the fd-o if I'm not mistaken [22:32] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PolicyKit [22:32] yeh, you're right [22:32] wow [22:32] I didn't realize it was so late already [22:32] 10 PM here :) [22:32] 5:32pm and I thought it was early afternoon [22:33] no wonder I'm so hungry [22:33] you didnt eat at midday ? [22:33] SiDi, I had a sandwich, yea [22:33] hehe [22:33] go grab something to eat then [22:34] i need to use a sort function in my brain, it's a bit fuzzy atm [22:35] I remember when I first started contributing to Xubuntu and Ubuntu [22:35] I felt the same way [22:35] It seemed like everyone was running around like chickens with their heads cut off [22:35] cody-somerville, you were here since dapper....wernt ya? [22:35] Well, my problem is that i see the chicken regularly bouncing into each other cody-somerville :) [22:36] SiDi, it happens [22:36] Especially between developers and non-developers. [22:36] Just watch ubuntu-devel-discuss [22:36] vidd, Earlier, since 2005 [22:36] well, even between developers [22:36] we each have our focus areas [22:36] SiDi, Yup, bound to happen! :) [22:37] well...there was no xubuntu-breezey [22:37] cody-somerville: focus 1 is about making ubuntu foundation and xfce work well together, right ? [22:37] SiDi, its about making everything work well together [22:37] About making XFCE compatible with what we use in ubuntu foundation, but is it also about making sure ubuntu foundation makes it possible to use XFCE as a DE ? [22:39] Another example would be the default applications launched by other applications [22:40] We want the applications we ship to be launched [22:40] and generally we want a single application for a single purpose [22:40] We wouldn't want to ship two file managers for example [22:42] sounds logical :) [22:42] Now, when there is a case of conflict between two apps to use [22:42] benny`work [n=benny@eclipse/developer/Technology/bennywork] has quit ["EclipseSource - Industrial-strength Eclipse (http://eclipsesource.com/)"] [22:42] for instance the power manager, or the screensaver [22:43] * cody-somerville has to feed the dog, please continue to ask your questions and I'll answer when I get back. [22:43] Do you privilege the app that behaves better with ubuntu foundations (but that would be les sintegrated with XFCE or would require additional deps) before privileging XFCE apps that might lack integration ? [22:52] Once again, what is an 'xfce application'? [22:53] xf-p-m for instance [22:53] an app that is maintained by xfce is an xfce app [22:54] xf-p-m is not an xfce application [22:54] an app using xfce libs to provide utilities that other apps get by using gnome / kde libs is an xfce app [22:54] What is it then ? [22:54] Just a gtk application trying to leverage the reputation of Xfce IMHO [22:55] Depends: libxfce4util4 [22:55] Depends: libxfcegui4-4 [22:55] Depends: libxfconf-0-2 [22:55] of course, gtk apps depend oncore xfce components [22:55] for instance, midori is a gtk app, xfce4-power-manager is not [22:56] cody-somerville: can we agree on separating apps in two categories : apps that use core ubuntu / core xfce / gtk / freedesktop.org stuff and _other_ apps ? [22:59] mr_pouit, If I create a gtk application that just displays a dialogue that says Hello %s where %s is a string stored in xfconf and call it xfce4-hello and then get free hosting on Xfce goodies, is what I created *really* deserving of the title of being an xfce application? [22:59] Yes an extreme but its to help make my point [22:59] you won't do it, so that's not an issue [23:00] Doesn't stop other people [23:00] example ? [23:00] cody-somerville: so what makes a GNOME app ? [23:00] the HIG ? [23:00] many Xfce apps use GNOME hig, so no [23:00] XFCE clearly separates Core apps from goodies at the moment. Goodies are the same as gtk apps using gconf or such [23:01] SiDi, A number of GNOME apps shouldn't call themselves gnome apps [23:01] it's not core de apps, but they do use the DE and are meant to work with the DE [23:01] For example, there is xarchiver [23:02] Description: GTK+ frontend for most used compression formats Xarchiver is a Desktop Environment independent GTK+ 2 frontend for manipulating 7z, arj, bzip2, gzip, rar, tar, zip, and RPM files. [23:02] quadrispro [n=quadrisp@ubuntu/member/quadrispro] has joined #xubuntu-devel [23:02] it isn't really advertised as a Xfce app [23:02] if we had similar QA and UI guidelines requirements as XFCE core, the use of "XFCE" apps wouldnt be a problem, right, cody-somerville ? [23:03] I'd like most applications to be in the same big pot [23:03] Just plain ol' GTK applications [23:03] at the moment we take apps that have individual merits, okey, but it doesnt seem to matter if they pull in new deps and make the desktop heavier, or if they dont work fine with our DE [23:03] ideally GTK apps should be able to transparently work with every DE, indeed [23:04] but we shouldnt use an app that relays on other DEs components [23:04] The only time we should ship an application on the basis is that its Xfce is if its in Xfce core [23:05] I dont mean ship an app _because_ its XFCE [23:05] i mean systematically focus on apps that are only using cross-DE stuff or XFCE stuff [23:05] we do attempt to do that [23:05] and if one of these apps would be a good app for us except for one thing that lacks, we should implement it [23:06] it does seem that thats what we do, but most of our current packages dont match these criterias :) [23:06] no, we don't do that actually [23:06] we use another one, even if it's not really cross-desktop, instead of contributing to the first one [23:07] We don't have the resources to contribute to every crappy gtk application out there just because it brands its self in a certain way [23:08] no, we dont have such ressources [23:08] yeah, you are so in a position to qualify an app as crappy [23:08] now, when we have conflicting situations like the power manager, if xfpm lacks policy kit, then we should implement it [23:08] SiDi, I'm open to that [23:08] even if it takes more time and if we dont have immediate results in the coming release for that [23:08] We shouldnt expect XFCE to become ubuntu-foundation compliant. it's our distro role, not theirs [23:09] * cody-somerville nods. [23:10] Is xf-p-m in the archive? [23:10] indeed [23:10] ... [23:10] i'm using it right now cody-somerville [23:10] its up to date? [23:10] The latest one was release ~ 2 weeks ago, i dont think its been uploaded yet [23:10] no, it's a svn snapshot from the first day [23:10] because it's better ^_^ [23:11] upstream _is_ open. I wrote feature requests and they made it into xfpm. [23:11] * SiDi sends a angry kitten at mr_pouit [23:11] * mr_pouit sends apt-cache to cody-somerville [23:11] 0.8.2 is in karmic [23:11] and it's the latest version [23:11] oh [23:11] lets seed it [23:11] well, its even already there [23:11] it supports notify-osd too [23:11] SiDi: yep [23:12] but i dont know about policy kit cody [23:12] but i think we should at least test it and see what lacks [23:12] unless in rare situations i think opting for standard | xfce apps and adding what we need brings more benefits to upstream xfce and gives us a better control over xubuntu [23:14] quadrispro [n=quadrisp@ubuntu/member/quadrispro] has quit ["Leaving."] [23:19] cody-somerville: would it be possible to organize a meeting with the core team and contributors to try to discuss and formalize an optimal approach to how to make foundation and xfce core work together, and to make sure desktop apps relay only on standard / foundation / xfce core stuff ? [23:20] I've got to patch notify-osd for instance cause it uses gconf. Maintaining it will be a piece of cake. I think in these situations, either an app can work without other DE deps which future we dont have a word on, or this app should be avoided [23:20] ugh [23:20] And we should imo review, in the next 3/4 releases, the apps we currently use [23:20] how exactly are you going to patch notify-osd to not use gconf? [23:21] it needs gconf to get the DPI / font name from gnome session [23:21] i'll write a patch that instead uses xfconf, with a compile time option [23:21] (xfconf with xfce preferences) [23:22] Then n-o can be packaged for use in XFCE [23:22] so there will be two binary packages? [23:22] (actually it could also be possible to ship n-o with both xfce and gnome and make on-the-fly settings loading but it would add some deps) [23:22] yup [23:22] MacSlow is ok with it, he's the one who asked the patch to be at compile time [23:23] and i did expose the idea and asked for approval at the last meeting [23:25] my opinion is that either the app can easily work in XFCE (ie. little maintenance work) or it should be dropped [23:25] For instance it may be time to drop GDM ^___^ [23:26] Okay [23:26] Well, I'm going to go relax a bit. I've been working for 12 hours now. [23:26] Alright, have a nice relaxation then [23:27] I hope you'll organize this meeting cody-somerville :) i think xubuntu would profit from being able to clearly state how to achieve its goals [23:27] SiDi, If you want such a meeting, you'll need to take the initiative to arrange it. [23:28] alright. [23:28] im dont believe im in a position where i can take such initiative though [23:29] I think you are [23:29] Alright [23:29] i'll think about it tomorrow then and i'll send a mail to the list